so mr bush is giving his speach rite now. he is saying how we have found these great things that will prevent terrorism in the US. not that i dont think that it is good that we have stopped terror plots, but he completely neglected to mention the fact that we didnt find any weapons of mass destruction, which is ...what ....why we went to war? "to get the weapons of mass destruction out of those damn terrorists hands"?. well...that didnt work and look where we are now. there werent any weapons, and we're in a war that we shouldnt be in, all to get oil. we're in somebody else's country and messing with their stuff. but we're america and we have to right to go out and stir up your shit if we want to.
here is a poem that i got in history class this year on september 11th. i think it puts the world into a good perspective. its not just us that endured something bad. there are other countries, places and people who have had equal and far worse things happen to them, but they go un noticed.
http://www.intraa.org/blog/lorisir/911remembered
ps. i also find it strange, yet very cliche not suprising, that to look better and more people friendly, that laura bush is sitting next to an injured us soldier.
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It was not a war to just get weapons of mass destruction and I hope you understand that. There's a gapping hole in the heart of the U.S. and NYC skyline. We went to war to remove a man from power who had masacared a people and terrorized the world. Now we're still there to finish the job. Would it be better to leave and let the terrorists take over what our brave soldiers have worked tirelessly for? We acted because we are the U.S. and we've never taken shit from anybody and if we had we wouldn't be free now.
I'm with "The Vans" on this one. Couldn't you argue that the reason there is a hole in the skyline is because G.Bush was asleep at the wheel? He was playing golf in Texas while National Security was trying to warn him. He dropped the ball.
However, I have alot, alot of friends in the Military and while I dont support the man's actions I realize that we have to support or troops to the fullest. We're in it now and to back out completely would be a sign of weakness. Train their military. Blow stuff up. Leave quietly out the back door.
My 2 cents. Peace.
yeah logan we might not be fre now but that was a freaking long time ago. since then we have acted like the arrogant assholes that the US is thought of by the rest of the world...we basically think that the whole world is ours and its ours to mess up and its ours "fix". as much as i hate the war and the president i agree with rok that it is a bad idea to just leave now, but again why are we there in the first place.
"but again why are we there in the first place." BIG, BIG hole, thousands dead. Whether or not we were getting tips doesn't make what they did okay.
not to say that what happened on 9-11 is insignificant, but just under 3000 people died on 9-11, 2973 exactly. the current us military death toll in iraq is just over 3000, at 3063. Also the current civilian death toll in iraq is somewhere in between 54,400 and 60,100. Don't try to say that the deaths of the citizens of iraq dont count, that they deserve it or they dont matter.
http://icasualties.org/oif/
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
also none, NONE, of the hijackers were from iraq.
Yes, citizens have died in Iraq. But we are not the ones killing them. Except for night bombings a few years ago. Most of them were killer by the terrorists. Car bombs, Jihad's, etc. How many more innocent people would have been masacared if Sadam had been left in power? No the hijackers were not from Iraq but Sadam backed them, and bankrolled them. The 3,063 fallen men and women are not less important but they signed up for the armed forces. The citizens who were in tower 1 & 2 didn't sign up for shit. Don't act like nothing happended. You weren't at a school where kids didn't know if there perant would be coming home that night. Or people were being pulled out of class early because her mom knew her dad had been above the crash. I may be onesided because of this but that's how I feel.
Yes we are. Not only by bombs and general warefare, but also indirectly. Do you think there would be even half as many car bombs or suicide bombs each day or month if we WEREN'T there? No. I'm obviously not gonna change your mind, and your obviously not going to change my mind. same with any other conflicting issue that everybody, and probebly us too, would debate about.
i think that we should have done something useful with the billions of dollars that we threw into the war that we're now in debt for. Keep in mind that the debt that mr. bush said, last night, that we have cut in half does not include the funds for the war. why? so he can say that he did cut the debt in half, and because its classified as "emergency" debt. Funding our nation's public schools, hunger or even trying to put a dent into other real problems in the world that we couldnt really mess up, like funding the aids relief, or cancer research or trying to tackle world hunger. our money could be better spent.
All right, I had a lot to say, but please read it because I think you will find many interesting points. You may be surprised at what I have to say.
All right. I'm here. Martin has done an excellent point argueing many of my views and finding the FACTS. I would just like to add my 2 cents and reaffirm some of the things that some people do not quite understand still. We will start with 9-11. I could start at the American Revolution, but I have not got that much time. First off, I would like to point out one major inaccuracy in Logan's arguements. We are not free. America actually is becoming less and less free each day. Compared to most "Western" countries, American citizens have far far fewer freedoms. America was indeed formed as a sanctuary so to speak for, those seeking religious and political freedom. This "ideal" has long since been lost. George W. Bush claimed that he will pursue his interests even if the majority of the people does not agree. He said that being popular doesn't matter to him. Look for his recent dateline off niteline or something like that interview if you don't believe that. Anyways a "democracy" is a government that is supposed to represent the majoritys opinion. With him not caring what the majority says and his approval rating being 28%, I think our democracy has turned into a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, the people lose their freedom. Therefore, George W. Bush among others has led us into a lack of freedom. All right. Now beginning with 9-11. We were bombed by "terrorists" on 9-11-01. 2,973 people lost their lives because of them. Many families were upturned. This is very unfortunate. George did know about this, and he definitly dropped the ball on this. This was PREVENTABLE. 0, that is ZERO of these terrorists lived, resided, or were from Iraq. So, we invaded Afghanastan. Most of the population was for the war. War is never the answer in my opinion, but we live in a "democracy", therefore, I can say that war isn't all that bad in comparison. We were told we were going after the terrorists or as George put it a "War on Terror." Okay, I'll buy that. I believe most of the "terrorists" did have some connection to Osama Bin Laden. Using modern technologies, casualties were kept low. I still am okay with that, even though personally I'm against all war. Then in 2003, George decides based on information "gathered" (made up) by the "CIA" that we should declare war on Iraq in an interest to stop terrorism. The American public is told that Sadam Hussein is hiding and/or making weapons of mass destruction. Let's just pretend that this isn't total bull shit. We have more weapons of mass destruction in our ownership then EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD COMBINED. Do you not think that this would scare a much smaller, less devloped nation like Iraq? So, they have a weapon of mass destruction...since when is it our right...our duty, if you will, to tell others what they can and cannot do. They need a system of defense just as we do. We should have never ever bothered with Iraq. All right, stop pretending that they did have a weapon of mass destruction. THEY DIDN'T. The American public was lied to, so they government could gain support for the war. Not our place to be there. Sadam, although an "evil" man, should not have been overthrown by us. Revolution is a RIGHT of the people of that country. Not of whoever the hell feels like it. US military becomes sloppy. No more few casualties. thousand upon thousands of civilians die. It just becomes a desensitzing number. When numbers get that big, you lose focus of what that means. Those people are DEAD. Not to mention the almost 3 TRILLION, not billion, TRILLION, dollars spent by the US. Yes, Martin, you are right, with that money, which a Nobel Economics Prize winner developped, we could cure world hunger. Let me remind you, NONE of the terrorists that started this whole mess were from Iraq. So why are we here you ask? Oil, I answer. America set up a puppet government in Iraq of people who think exactly like they think. Another note, Sadam didn't bankroll the terrorists, I think you're thinking of Osama Bin Ladin again. And he definitly didn't back them, you know who did back them. US citizens. The WEST. The western philosophy is strictly opposing their philosophy. To them the western philosophy was destroying them, trying to make them Westernized. We couldn't keep our hands to our self if you will. Now we come to present day. We have a big mess to clean. What do we do now? Obviously we cannot just pull out. Obviously pumping more people and $$ into is going to go absolutely no where. So, why don't we listen to what many intelligent non-redneck-hillbilly democrats are telling us. Stop sending troops. Train the Iraqis to take over this CIVIL WAR by themselves. S l o w l y pull our troops out. Little by little, while continually preparing the Iraqis to come to a non-military victory. Train them in the ways of politics. Use words not guns to prove a point. The Ghandi way or the MLK way if you will. Those two people have obviously made a more positive influence on our world then people like Hitler or Bush have. Lets follow in the footsteps of the peacemakers. Continue supporting our troops. It is not the individual troops fault that the causualties are so high. They are doing their job. They are doing a very very good job I might add. We need a new strategy. Violence will inevitablly still exist in Iraq, but we can teach the ways of Ghandi to others and spread his message of love and peace for ALL human beings.
Dude, Up to 10 Comments! Pretty impressive. But seriously, My bad on the war. I'm teh sux.
Love,
G.W. Bush
ps. Logan let's ride together some time. Do you MTB?
pps. Charlie you plagiarized that, seriously, WTF? post too long, brah.
I'm sorry I couldn't resist. That was me(el presidente). Discussion = continue.
Can someone be Pro-Military but Anti-Bush? If so, that's is me. My Dad was in the Pentagon when the plane crashed into it. Not near to the crash site but in the building. Yeah, that was a reality check. I was upset/angry but we could have sent Special Ops and cleaned their house, silently. I watch "The Unit", I know what's up.
A couple of times we had Al Qaeda trapped in Afghanistan but let them go to increase private sector profits. People like Haliburton were making big money off the war.
I think you can to a certain extent rok. I think that we can support the troops that are in iraq not necessarily with what they're doing over there but hope for their safety, but i dont agree with why they are there. CHARLIE. very well said. Along with us losing our freedom and our rights to this corrupt government, the patriot act is clear evidence of that.
The real question is...
What is Freedom? Can it be difined? or is just an intangible effort towards true happeniss?
First, Martin, and others I guess, but this will probably interest Martin the most, a bunch of people are meeting at Grand and Arsenal on 10:30AM on Saturday to take a picture to send to Missouri congressmen/women about ending the war in Iraq. Saturday is the first big national rally to end this war just like the rallies of the late 60s, but it is in D.C. and I can't make it. Luckily they're having this mini one in St Louis. You should come and show your support if you're not busy. 10:30AM Grand and Arsonal. It's being put on by Mocabe's too.
Mike to respond to your question. I think freedom is a very very difficult word to define. It has many correct definitions. It is also relative. The intention of early Americans was to be as free as possible, involving little to no federal government. As set up by the original colonists, freedom is being able to do whatever you want without harming, potentialy harming, or attempting to harm three things: life, property, and liberty. This is my opinion. As long as we are not harming/attempting to harm anyone else's life or intentionally putting ourselves at risk to harm any one elses life (like drunk driving), harming/attempting to harm anyone else's property or intentionally putting ourselves at risk to harm anyone else's property (reckless driving), or harming/attempting to harm anyone else's liberites or intentionally putting ourselves at risk to harm anyone else's liberties (Patriot Act). To me that is freedom. This is what America was founded upon. Our forefathers defined freedom in this way, and we have lost that. I don't think freedom is an intangible effort towards true happiness though, because in small comunes and on a small basis total freedom is tangible. And true happiness for some people is killing, which infringes upon other's freedom, so therefore couldn't be considered freedom. Anyways, this debate will rage on for many moons to come, and there will never be a completely agreed upon answer.
Umm yea. So Bush could be impeeched. That says to me that he's not a dictator. If you don't agree with that you can take it up with Jefferson. Also, bullshit if your not free. We experience some pretty amazing rights. Like everyone being able to bitch about whatever they want. I would not call Iraq's potential nuclear weapons their national security. I would call it a crazy guy who commits genocide's toy he would have used them to blow a hole into the U.S. Then you would be complaining that it's Bush's fault cuz he heard a rumor not a specific date or place but a rumor that Sadam would nuke us. Martin there would may be less killing if we weren't in Iraq. But that would be because terrorists would have a firm grip on the country so they would only need to do a couple Jihads a day. Oh, good luck with the Ghandi/MLK way. The terrorists would love the philosophies of a Western equal rights leader. They would love Ghandi too becuase these phsychos think God wants them to kill other people for him. I also like how you were so anti-american that you said it was our fault because they felt that they were becoming too Westernized. You gave them a fucking out for what they did and that is appalling. O well I'm done. I'll sleep well knowing that we've got the largest supply of nuclear weapons and we could blow every cave Osama might be in straight into orbit.
logan, the final sentence of your post is why everyone in the world hates america and americans.
First off, anti-American means that either you hate America or that you hate Americans. I do not hate either. I will admit, I am anti-redneck though, since it seems that Logan is substituting the word "American" for the word "redneck". I am an American citizen who is trying to cause change. That doesn't mean I hate America, that just means I think it could be better.
Second off, impeaching a president does literally nothing. He/she must be convicted for them to be removed from office, and if aby one thinks that any president could be convicted then they obviously know very little about how our political system works. Here in America, we have a two-party system. On many issues the two parties are split. If one party wants to do something, then they need some support of the other party. Therefore, Congress continually has to make compromises (you vote our side for this, we'll vote your side for that). That's how things get done in a democracy. If one party were to remove a president from office, then the other party would never vote for their side for many years to come. Therefore, for a number of years our country would be at a complete standstill, getting absolutely nothing accomplished. Now, most Congressmen/women our intelligent enough to figure this out, so they don't even bother with trying.
Third off, Logan is clearly, ignorant, of our rights and the rights of other countries who our considered to have "westernized" cultures. By the way, ignorant means lacking in knowledge, not stupid, as many people seem to inappropriately use it. In America there is the Patriot Act, which is so cleverly named by people who think in "redneck" ways, and think that if someone doesn't agree with it then they're not a patriot and they're anti-American, because duh...it's the Patriot Act. This enables the government to read any email or listen to any telephone conversation they want. Then, the government comes to your house and takes that person away because of their speech. If someone doesn't think this violates the freedom of SPEECH amendment, then they must not have read it recently. It is true that American puppet countries (cough, cough...Britian...cough) do just about everything America does, and they have enacted similar laws, even though they are considered to be "westernized". Now if you'd take a look many other "westernized" countries, you will not find them violates their own constitutions. In all honesty, the reason I and others like me are allowed to "bitch about whatever [we] want" is because we do not have Arabic sounding names or Arabic looking skin. I think you will find if you look at the world around you that most of the "violators" of the Patriot Act, either have arabic sounding names or Arabic lloking skin. I hope no one starts thinking this, but because I have heard it out of many mouths of "redneck" people, I will say it. The reason most of the "violators" have Arabic sounding names or Arabic looking skin is not because Muslims are terroists or because their religion tells them to be terrorists.
This brings me to my next point. There are very, very many terrorists who have nothing to do with Islam or the Middle East. Islam is not a religion that preaches terrorism, so I think that Logan, should probablly read more about Islam or talk to more Muslims. Some of these Middle Eastern terrorists do claim to be doing it for their religion, but those are what we call extremists, just as there are Christian extremists, who blow up abortion clinics. I would also consider that group, (mainly caucasian people) to be terrorists.
Next, I used Ghandi and MLK as examples of getting things done without violence. Not because MLK worked for Equal rights. And FYI, Ghandi is most certainly not a "western" philosopher. As I earlier pointed out, "western" philosophy differs highly from "eastern" philosophy. I was not giving anyone an "out" for the terrible things that they have done. I was simply trying to inform you of why they may have did it. The "western" countries are putting extreme amounts of pressure to "become westernized or submit to our reign". With all this tremendous political pressure, and the knowledge that America has much more power than them, don't you think that Sadam Hussein would want to be prepared in case of attack (what do you know?...we did attack)? If he wanted to build nuclear weapons, I would've said go for it, I'd be scared in his position to. There was/is a civil war going on in Iraq, and I beleive the way he handled it was completely wrong and evil, and shoul have been punished for his actions, but it is not our duty to ruin their country.
Now, I would like to point out an important inaccuracy in Logan's statement. He clearly suggests that 9-11-01 was a "rumor", and that he didn't know "a specific date or place". This is completely false. There is overwhelming proof that he and the CIA knew the exact plans of the terrorists of 9-11-01, but chose to ignore it.
Finally, I would like to point out that less people would have died if we didn't go to war, because all this war has accomplished (not in terms of oil) was take a CIVIL WAR that was ALREADY present and make it much, much worse.
Also, Logan I thought you should know that Martin's statement is ver true, and you should probablly not say things like: "I'll sleep well knowing that we've got the largest supply of nuclear weapons and we could blow every cave Osama might be in straight into orbit." I don't mean to personally attack you, but I do mean to advise you on unintelligent things that you shouldn't say.
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